[LEXIE LEE] The Married Entrepreneurs Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Bomb Mom and Grow A Group Practice, go to www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. [RON LEE] Welcome to the Married Entrepreneurs Podcast. This is Ron Lee. [LEXIE] And I am Lexie Lee. [RON] We are professional counselors and serial entrepreneurs who are married [LEXIE] To each other. [RON] Thank you for joining us as we explore the business of life and the life of business. [LEXIE] Hey, love. [RON] Hey. [LEXIE] It’s hard to sound cheerful and upbeat right now. [RON] Why is that? [LEXIE] Because we had a fight right now. [RON] We did have a fight because you’re frustrating. [LEXIE] Ditto, babe. Ditto. [RON] So, during this fight, we thought, not necessarily record it, but we did want to have an understanding of the steps involved in the fight. [LEXIE] Well, so let me set it up, I’m getting a little more upbeat. We were talking about this idea, of the paradox of you don’t have to point out things that your partner needs to do differently. The paradox is, if you look at yourself and you focus on changing yourself, suddenly your partner has this space and is more willing to work on themselves because they’re not always in this defensive mode. [RON] I want to throw “you hope” in there. You hope your partner can not be in defensive mode to point the finger back at themselves and work on themselves. [LEXIE] It’s not an A plus B equals C formula. However, it doesn’t work to always be pointing out how your partner could fight better or change if they would just do whatever. [RON] So basically, what you said is, it’d be a lot better if your partner just didn’t suck. [LEXIE] Isn’t that how we think? [RON] That’s what you said. [LEXIE] Well, when there’s friction, isn’t that what we’re thinking? If they were just different, we’d be fine. Just fix them. That’s what we always hear on the couch when couples come in for therapy is they’re not exactly saying fix them, but you can read their — [RON] No, they are really pointing their finger at their partners sometimes and going, “Fix them.” It takes a lot of work to get them to understand, to point the finger back at themselves and to do their own work. [LEXIE] I want people to understand that we know that this is so hard because we experienced it this morning of having to do the hard work of getting in your head and changing how you react. You had some good thoughts about reactionary problems in an argument or disagreement. [RON] Okay, so we have this talking style called the Curious Not Furious. Through that, one person is the initiator and one person is the inquirer. So the way the concept works is one person presents a problem and we have to look at the person who is asking questions. One of the main things we have to say to them is, stay in your head. This is not about you. Do not become reactionary and don’t become defensive. So we really try to get pick couples to understand that this reactionary and, help me out with words. [LEXIE] It really is about reacting to what they’re getting defensive, getting offended. That’s maybe what you’re looking for, is you don’t have to get offended. Instead of getting offended, you’re getting curious and you’re really listening to what your partner says. It also means that sometimes your partner’s going to lay some bricks or some potholes that you can get stuck in that you just have to stand over. Or as you say, they’re going to leave some poop out there. [RON] They’re going to drop some poop on the floor and you got to just make a decision. Are you going to step over it or step in it? [LEXIE] I always like to say that even if the poop is there and you decide to step over it, it doesn’t mean that it’s not going to affect you. You still have to look at it. You still have to smell it. It’s going to, you’re going to feel some effects. You’re just having to take a higher road, a higher position of, even though I smell it and I see it, I’m going to calm myself down to where I’m not getting offended and I’m not getting reactionary and I’m really listening to what my partner has to say. [RON] That is so hard. [LEXIE] It is so hard. I think that sometimes therapists give, couples’ therapists, they’re working on things, they give this impression that this is such an easy thing for everybody. If you all just could figure this out, you’d be like everybody else. It is hard for everybody because it’s not how most of us were raised to react or to deal with conflict and it feels personal. [RON] I think that’s the main thing, is it feels personal because they are talking about you. But you got to separate yourself from that and just try to approach your partner as a single to person and just go, it’s not necessarily all about me. I think that’s the most difficult part of stepping over. [LEXIE] Well, I also think that we give this message in our culture, in our society, that conflict is bad, it’s always bad. Really when you come down to the definition of conflict, it just means that something needs to change. If we can look at conflict that way, and that it is messy, then maybe we won’t avoid it so much and we can push through and get to whatever understanding we need to get to on the other side. You use an analogy of an engine when — [RON] Yes, the way it looks like a combustion engine. Okay, so we have a handful of moving parts in here. We’re going to have piston chambers, gasoline and a spark. Automotives move, vehicles move because of small explosions. A cylinder fills up full of gasoline, at the top of the gasoline there’s going to be a spark, that’s a spark plug, it’s going to ignite pushing the piston down, another pushing on the other side is going to go up. Then all of a sudden it starts and we’re making engines and we’re moving. What you have to watch out for is making sure you don’t blow the head gasket. [LEXIE] I think I did that this morning. [RON] I think that’s the reactionary, is the ability to go, I’m not blowing a head gasket. I think that’s the hardest part for couples is to not realize you don’t have to blow up so hard. It doesn’t have to be the end of everything. [LEXIE] Yes, or that everything has to be solved right now in this moment. We have to deal with this right now. [RON] Yes, that most of the time, once you get to that anger spot, you’re not going to deal with it right now. You’re just going to stew and the adrenaline’s going to drop. It’s going to last about 15 seconds. That’s the first thought. When you have an adrenaline job that’s going to go into your bloodstream, it’s going to take about 15 to 20 seconds for that to go out and then you have the second thought, which is reinforcing the first thought, drops the adrenaline back into the bloodstream and now you’re off to the races. As long as you keep pulling on it, chewing on it, stepping in it, you’re going to keep having these negative thoughts. [LEXIE] Well, and those negative thoughts tend to look like he just doesn’t get it. He just doesn’t understand. Why is he frustrating me on purpose? Just all, I mean, it’s never a good place and it’s all just feeding that disconnect and that not looking at your partner’s heart and that really, they really want to connect and they don’t want this conflict. And when we can look for each other’s heart right, that makes it a little easier not to get offended and to not be so reactionary. [RON] So let’s talk about what is reactionary? [LEXIE] Okay, what is reactionary? [RON] I think reactionary can come in a lot of different ways of how someone is going to respond to you when they’re upset. So you have your screamers, unless that’s an easier reactionary because they’re going to get louder, their tempos are going to go up, they may speak faster and those things. So you have that reactionary, but then you also have the opposite. [LEXIE] Oh, which is much scarier to me because I’ve had both in my lives, the screamer and the person who just gets really quiet. The screamer at least you know what they’re thinking. I never like the word screamer because that that vision for me is absolutely out of control. I think that there’s another that it’s like a spectrum where you can have out of control and you can just have loud, and that sometimes I think you use the word scream to describe what I would use as loud. So I would much rather have a loud vocal person who’s telling you all the things because you know what they’re thinking than to have the quiet person who just shuts down and you really don’t know what they’re thinking. I mean, they could be plotting murder [RON] Murder [LEXIE] You just don’t know what they’re thinking. [RON] Hopefully, you’re in a relationship well enough to them are not going to try to kill you. [LEXIE] Well, we do say that for us as a couple that divorce is not an option. Murder, yes, but divorce, no. So I’m glad that you tend not to get real quiet. I know that you’re really upset when you get quiet and I don’t know, maybe you’re thinking about getting on the tractor and digging a hole and — [RON] Putting somebody in there. [LEXIE] Making me disappear for a while. [RON] Well, then we’re going to make a little hole in the backyard. It’s going to be fine. We’ll put something in it. We’ll bury it all. No, that’s just wrong. So there’s tone. That’s what we talked about there when the reactionary is tenish, some people can get louder, some people get quiet. There’s other things that can happen that can be reactionary, walking away, stomping off. [LEXIE] Oh, the best is walking away and slamming a door. I do that well. [RON] Yes. [LEXIE] Hi, I’m Lexi. I’m a recovering door slammer. [RON] I’ll give her the recovering. She doesn’t do it very often anymore, folks. She used that a whole lot more when we first got married, but now very little door slamming happens. But that’s it. So we can break it down to tone and then we can look at physical, is that a better way of categorizing it, some physical responses? [LEXIE] Yes, walking away or slamming doors or it can be — [RON] Throwing stuff. [LEXIE] Well, yes. [RON] We don’t do that. [LEXIE] On the extreme end. It can also just be raising your hands and all that hand action. Those of us who talk a lot with our hands, sometimes the more reactionary we are, the more those hands get to go in. [RON] Hands are like giving you the number ones, calling someone number one, that one. [LEXIE] That’s not where I was going. [RON] Gestures? So what else is there? Let’s see. [LEXIE] Verbal and nonverbal, those are the two [RON] Yes, those are the ones, verbal and nonverbal. Then we went into — [LEXIE] Well, I would say the physical is nonverbal. [RON] Oh yes, I’ll agree with that. The physical’s nonverbal but you can be screaming and throwing stuff at the same time. I mean, so there’s punching walls. [LEXIE] Why are these violent? [RON] Well, that’s what people do. There are people who punch walls when they get reactionary. [LEXIE] Sure. And it doesn’t have to be that extreme either. [RON] Give me a low extreme on — [LEXIE] Okay, just lots of hand motions, the facial expressions, you want physical, lower? [RON] So out of these, out of these things, which is the one that should be ignored the most and which one do you feel it should be one paid the most attention to? [LEXIE] See, I think that depends on the person. Because there are certain people that maybe they grew up with something that feels familiar and it’s not as triggering. Like sometimes when we have certain cultural difference, like Italians may get higher tone. They get louder, they have way more hand motions and they’re not triggered when they see that because that just is passion [RON] Passion talk. [LEXIE] Right, and then, I don’t know if I would think that if we thought about some more Asian cultures that you might have less of that. It’s not just cultural. It’s just that family of origin, what felt normal. Sometimes what felt normal growing up is like, I am not doing that again. Because while that feels normal, it’s still triggering and it’s not what I want. So I think you have to talk about it, like have a Geneva convention [RON] They don’t know what a Geneva Convention is. We haven’t even gone over that stuff yet. [LEXIE] I’m about to. [RON] Oh, okay, by all means, let’s talk Geneva Convention. [LEXIE] Well, in our mind, a Geneva Convention is just when you talk about the rules of war or the rules around fighting, what is okay and what is not okay and having a conversation about when you’re triggered, what can help you to calm back down. I also think that more important than having that conversation is the thinking about what person do you want to be, back to that paradox thing. What person do you want to be and are you focused on being the person you want to be? Because if you’re being the best partner and you’re living up to what you say is important to you, I think often you find that your partner will come to the table, that they will work on themselves as well. [RON] They will claw for that inch. [LEXIE] They don’t know what that means. [RON] No, I don’t. They don’t. They’re all good. But you’re right on on the happy formula. Not happy formula, but the Geneva Convention. Okay, so how would you do this? All right, so both of you pull out a piece of paper. On one piece of paper, you’re going to write down what it is that you think it’s okay. What’s okay for you to think that you should be able to do in a fight? Now, hopefully you don’t think hitting walls and throwing things at your spouse is an okay thing to do. So really just look at it and go, it’s okay to get, yes, well to yell. It’s okay to take your time out. Then look at things that aren’t okay to do? It’s not okay to throw stuff. It’s not okay to name-call. Then really hone down your personal fighting styles and have the conversation of when you do this, this actually just makes me matter. Through that process, hopefully you will develop better fighting skills. [LEXIE] Yes, yes. Where are we, where do we want to be, kind of conversation is what you’re saying. [RON] This is an exercise that people really should be doing on a regular basis. You may turn around and go, well my fighting styles don’t change. But they will overt time. Now I’m not saying you got to do this once a week. I’m saying like, this is something you might want to pull out every two to three, five years, having, you’re going to stay married a long time. We’re not doing this to get divorced. I never wanted to approach my wife with like, she’s going to make a great first wife. That was never my approach. [LEXIE] I appreciate that. [RON] Thank you. [LEXIE] It makes me feel better about when you go get on the tractor that you’re really not digging. [RON] No, I’m not. I’m usually trying to get a tree out of the ground. Do these exercises. Take your time. Sit down with your wife. Do it in a time that you’re not in a zone where you could be actually upset with each other. You don’t want to talk about a fight after a fight immediately. Give yourself a little time. Understand your own personal reactionary; do you go up in tones? Do you get quiet? How do you do it? Take time to work on your marriage. It’s very important [LEXIE] I think this is going to be an ongoing conversation because it’s hard work. Just trust me when I say we’re doing the hard work too and we have found that it’s completely worth it and I hope that you find that it’s completely worth it in your marriage too. [RON] You all have a great day. [LEXIE] Thank you for listening. Time is our most valuable resource and we appreciate that you shared your time listening to us. If you enjoyed our show, please rate us or give us a review. You can share this episode with someone that you think may benefit. You can find more from us at marriedentrepreneurspodcast.com. [RON] This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.