[LEXIE LEE]: The Married Entrepreneurs Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Bomb Mom and Grow A Group Practice, go to www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. [RON]: Welcome to the Married Entrepreneurs Podcast. This is Ron Lee [LEXIE]: And I am Lexie Lee. [RON]: We are professional counselors and serial entrepreneurs who are married [LEXIE]: To each other. [RON]: Thank you for joining us as we explore the business of life and the life of business. [LEXIE]: We are family. I got all my sisters and me. [RON]: That’s actually where the problem starts, isn’t it? [LEXIE]: When we’re talking about this topic, listeners may not know this about me, but everything’s related to a song. You can say like two words and it makes me think of a song so today’s topic made me think of we are family. [RON]: Today’s topic, we are talking about family and actually working with your siblings. We see the dynamic between mom and dad. We’ll get into that later if we haven’t already talked about it but let’s talk about the kids today. The kiddos all work within the same company. [LEXIE]: Mom and dad start this company, or mom or dad, started a company and they have this vision of having their kids come and work for them and have this whole family business. It’s like what America was built on, this idea you have, so and so and sons and all these — [RON]: Jesus was a carpenter because daddy was a carpenter. That mentality is gone for thousands and thousands of years and still today in today’s America because it’s easy. Your parents develop a great company, you go to work for that company and you just keep it going. [LEXIE]: When you work for a parent, there is this natural hierarchy that is there. It’s easy for the parent to slip into a boss role and the authority is already there. What if authority goes to a sibling and they are responsible for making sure that their sibling is being a good employee? [RON]: That’s going to be difficult. [LEXIE]: I just think about with my siblings, I am the boss. [RON]: You are the oldest [LEXIE]: I’m the oldest, therefore I’m the boss and I’ve heard more than once, “You’re not the boss of me.” [RON]: Yes, I agree with that. [LEXIE]: So that mentality often translates to when you’re in the family business and you’re reporting to a sibling because, in these organizational charts, typically we have to have somebody who makes the final decision. [RON]: Correct. [LEXIE]: It’s not always the oldest sibling. I mean, it could be, but for sure, you have a sibling who is in charge and they’re trying to get brother or sister to be a good employee and they get attitude or push back or — [RON]: In the Michael Ko family, Fredo got looked over, Fredo got stepped right over it, went to Sonny, they stepped up, Sonny died. They stepped over Fredo, it went right to Michael and Fredo hated it. He absolutely had all kinds of resentment and hatred. You can see it in the Godfather movies all the way through, especially in part two where he just goes ballistic on the brother because well, he did try to assassinate him. There’s that. [LEXIE]: Might have been a little issue there. [RON]: I could see where I could get a little upset with my brother sending hitmen to my house and try to have me killed. But I didn’t know they were going to do that. Sure, sure, Fredo. But yes, so those dynamics need to be drawn out. We have to have an idea of clear boundaries. [LEXIE]: The thing about it is often with these family businesses, I don’t want to fire my brother, I’m her sister, can you do that? [RON]: Can you? Is mom and dad going to allow you to fire them? [LEXIE]: Well, and I think also sometimes what we see is that there tends to be one who is more responsible and so they don’t, they are told that they are responsible for making sure that their siblings are okay. [RON]: That has a lot of pressure because now it’s my responsibility to make sure they can pay their bills and not just me paying my bills. So I became their parent but all the way through childhood, the oldest is constantly told, “You’re not the momma, you’re not the daddy. You don’t tell, don’t be the parent for your kid.” Sometimes when you’re kids, but then all of a sudden you hit this adult stage and your parents are flipping the script. [LEXIE]: Yes. Well, and even as you’re growing up, it’s a mixed message of there are times when you’re told, oh, you can’t tell them what to do and other times, why didn’t you make sure that they did what they were supposed to do? [RON]: I was beating on him real good daddy till he told me to stop [LEXIE]: Well, and I think about a story where I lost driving privileges because I didn’t tattle on a sibling. When we were younger we were told don’t tattle. [RON]: Don’t rat. [LEXIE]: Exactly, told by the parent. [RON]: Don’t be a rat. [LEXIE]: Then suddenly a sibling was driving somewhere they weren’t supposed to be and I knew about it and didn’t say, therefore I lost driving privileges as well. So yes, this is a mixed message that we get sometimes with parents. When you’re in family business that can lead to, it’s your responsibility to take care of your siblings. That’s what this business is for and your brother or sister is not pulling their weight, they’re not being responsible. [RON]: Ooh, that’s tough stuff. I would think when I listen to that part of this is scope, understanding the scope of it and going that route. [LEXIE]: Yes. We have some tips on some things that can help certainly trying to work out the relationship where you can have a conversation. These are difficult conversations but some general things that can help. First thing would be trying to have a shared vision for where the company’s going to go. We all, if we have the mindset of we have ownership and we know where we want to take this and how to get there, a good leader is able to inspire that shared vision thinking [RON]: Some goal-setting and things of that nature to have an idea of the path the company is going on. [LEXIE]: But also having all of the siblings be a part of setting those goals to where there’s ownership in the goal. [RON]: Okay. [LEXIE]: Clear boundaries, you mentioned that earlier. What we see that looking like is what helps with that is an organizational chart with clearly defined roles of who is responsible for what. A lot of times we find in family businesses that there’s not that direct line of this is what this person is responsible for. They have a very strict job description. We know who is in charge of what and nobody is stepping over that boundary. It’s sometimes, okay, when we’re the boss, we might want to micromanage and that doesn’t work well in helping that shared vision with our sibling. [RON]: My mind keeps on taking me to a place where a dynamic of where you have one person who’s in the business hits the boots on the ground, understands the business inside out, I’m going to, let’s just specialize. I’m going to say it like an electrician. So you have one guy who goes to work with dad. I mean, he pulls cable, he understands, electrician 100% and then you have a different brother or sister who goes to college. The college kid spends four years at college but then when they come back mom and dad offer them a position in the company above the sibling who actually knows how to do all the work because they go, “Oh, well you went to college and therefore you have the college degree, so we’re going to give you this magical position.” Then the guy who’s been on boots on the ground for the last three to four years has tons of resentment. Like, you don’t even know what you’re doing. You don’t know how to pull cable, you don’t anything about the industry, but you’re being the boss of me? [LEXIE]: It feels like a lack of respect. [RON]: A huge lack of respect. So I could definitely see where clear boundaries would have to come into play with that [LEXIE]: And treating each other with respect and understanding how the perspective of your sibling, what that might be. I think another important ingredient is being willing to not be nice because sometimes we just try to avoid conflict. The purpose of conflict is to say something’s not working and it needs to change so it doesn’t have to have casualties when you have conflict. But if we’re too nice because we’re trying to avoid casualties, then the problem doesn’t get better. [RON]: No because we know where nice guys finish, everyone. Nice guys finish — [LEXIE]: Last. [RON]: I just made you say last in your head before I said last. So you thought it because it’s an old saying, there’s a reason nice people finish last. Don’t necessarily need to be a nice guy to get things done. Do what you want to be, is a good man. [LEXIE]: Because good guys always win. Because [RON]: Because the good guys always win. So it’s an understanding of nice, good concept and understanding the differences between those personalities. [LEXIE]: Right, because sometimes we think that either we’re being passive or we’re being aggressive and there is actually a middle ground where we’re being assertive. We’re not getting walked over and being passive and we’re not again, causing casualties by being aggressive. We’re being good and we’re being assertive. [RON]: Here’s something, you have to be willing to walk away. [LEXIE]: Yes and that means either walking away from this difficult conversation or it might mean that you have to walk away from the business. [RON]: If we’re running that scenario of the electrician, let’s go back to that, so you have the sister who knows how to run the industry. She knows how to run the business. That’s basically what the parents are trying to do. They’re going to give her the inside office job but the brother, like I said, has that resentment. It’s not talked about, it’s not dealt with, but all of a sudden he quits. I’m going to open up my own firm, my own company, bye. It’s devastating to the company because the sister doesn’t know what to do. So we definitely have to think about real deep, is this something we want to walk away from? What are the consequences if I walk away from this? What’s it going to do the family dynamic if we walk away from this? Mom and dad probably aren’t going to be happy. Your siblings aren’t going to be happy, your nieces and nephews aren’t. It’s going to be a giant show, but sometimes it’s actually the best thing to do. [LEXIE]: Another possible solution that can be helpful is doing one of two things, either you have a layer of management in between siblings, so that one sibling is not directly reporting to another sibling, but there’s like a middle manager maybe that is in there that can buffer some of that. The other thing is that sometimes you can have an outside agency come in and either help to set up those clear boundary lines, if it’s difficult for you as a family to have this conversation, bringing someone in who understands all the different elements of running an organization and having a consultant. [RON]: Yes, bringing in professional consultants. It’s costly. It can be expensive, but if it saves your company, is there any amount of money that’s not, it’s worth it. [LEXIE]: Right. I mean, there is amount of money, but for sure don’t be afraid of those costs because if we’re playing the long game, it can actually make you more money in the long run. So any of you out there struggling with family issues, we’d love to hear more from you. You can find information on our Facebook group. The Married Entrepreneurs on Facebook, or you can find us on our website, the marriedentrepreneurspodcast.com. [RON]: Drop us an email if you would like us to have a conversation with you over a topic that’s going on within your family. Please drop us an email. We would love to talk to you. [LEXIE]: Thank you for listening. Time is our most valuable resource and we appreciate that you shared your time listening to us. If you enjoyed our show, please rate us or give us a review. You can share this episode with someone that you think may benefit. You can find more from us at marriedentrepreneurspodcast.com. [RON]: This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.