[LEXIE LEE] The Married Entrepreneurs Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Bomb Mom and Grow A Group Practice, go to www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. [RON LEE] Welcome to the Married Entrepreneurs Podcast. This is Ron Lee. [LEXIE] And I am Lexie Lee. [RON] We are professional counselors and serial entrepreneurs who are married [LEXIE] To each other. [RON] Thank you for joining us as we explore the business of life and the life of business. [LEXIE] I want to start off the show today with a little bit of a warning that there may be a couple of things that are said today that are not for little ears. My first question, you’re going to go, oh, okay. Anyway, so were you ever paid for grades? [RON] Was I paid for grades? [LEXIE] When you were growing up, were you paid money if you got like A’s? [RON] I think I was promised money for grades, but I don’t think it was ever a thing that actually happened. [LEXIE] Just because you didn’t get the A’s that what you’re saying? [RON] Oh, that sounds rough, but that could be the case. [LEXIE] I was paid for grades. [RON] Were you? [LEXIE] Yes, like I can’t remember how much I would get, and — [RON] I want to say like $5 for an A and then it trickles on down to nothing. [LEXIE] Right, but I’m old, so it might have been a $1 or $2 but I was paid for grades. I didn’t work for it. I mean, I was just a natural, I’m going to get good grades person, so it wasn’t an incentive for me. Yet my parents and my grandparents were like you make A’s, we’re going to pay you. [RON] You got to double dip? Your grandparents paid you for the grades and your parents paid you for the grades? [LEXIE] Sometimes, yes. [RON] That is a miracle in today’s economy. [LEXIE] We made the choice not to pay our kids. Part of it was because it wasn’t a motivator for me and one of our kids, there was never any incentive, like going through potty training and offering M&Ms if you do it. She was like, I don’t care. It had to be self-motivating for her from the start. But it makes me think about this how early for us are things started where if you exhibit good behavior, then you get this good reward and how that can be good as a good transaction sometimes, and sometimes it may not be a good transaction. [RON] So are you linking back to like your childhood for that behavior as an adult, like the reason you hold people to an accountability because they’re not doing what you want them to do? Am I following you? [LEXIE] Well, I’m just saying that it starts young, that we do this transactional, if you behave well then you get this reward. [RON] Agreed, agreed. I can see that. But as an adult, it also works in the workplace. That’s the same concept that bosses have. You get a paycheck. You don’t show up no paycheck. So behavioral transactional stuff happens all throughout our lives but are you saying that there’s certain spots where it shouldn’t happen, like you shouldn’t have to pay your kids for grades? [LEXIE] Well, I mean that, I think that part depends on the kid. [RON] Okay. [LEXIE] I’m waiting to talk about when is it okay to have a transactional relationship and when is it not. You were telling me about talking with some people the other day where it’s like in their relationship sex is transactional. [RON] Yes, she, the wife has to hold out and she’s upset with her husband because he’s manifesting change, she’s wanting change. Apparently the guy’s a slob and she’s like, I need you to start picking up around the house. According to her, he changes for like three weeks. He gets like this three week good boy stuff where he’s doing things he’s supposed to do, but then he reverts back to the old ways. [LEXIE] I think that’s a common thing that can happen in relationships where we’re wanting to reward good behavior but there are some basic issues that I have with that. One, it’s not our job to change our partner’s behavior. That transactional, if that’s what we’re doing sex for, I’m rewarding you for good behavior in a transactional way, in that way I’m either authority over you like I’m your mom or I’m your boss. [RON] Well, and that was part of her complaint, part of her complaint was she felt like she was his mom. She was mommying him and it was things like clothing. He would be mad because he wouldn’t go to his underwear drawer and look to see that he’s low of underwear or he wouldn’t look at, she wouldn’t look at his closet to check how many clean jeans he had. She’s like, I’m not doing that. If your stuff’s in the dirty clothes hamper where all the other dirty clothes are, then your stuff’s going to get washed. So it was just those things. [LEXIE] I can see that frustration, but — [RON] And? [LEXIE] And that would make it harder for me to feel loving feelings for you, but withholding sex that’s just a road you don’t want to go down, that it should be a part of the relationship. Not that you should be forced to have sex, that that’s totally different. [RON] No, no, that’s totally different thing. We’re not saying that [LEXIE] It’s just, it’s tough for me too. [RON] Another part of the dynamic with them is that she views any physical contact, physical touch, and we’ve talked about touch before, so that’s a previous episode. If you want to go back, you can listen to that. There’s friendly touch, sensual touch, erotic touch. Am I missing one? [LEXIE] Playful touch. [RON] Playful touch. She views every bit of that as he just wants to have sex. I’m like, that needs to change a little bit because with that mindset, you can’t even get a hug. Hugs aren’t necessarily saying I want to have sex. It’s just making the connection. [LEXIE] Yes, and so are we reinforcing that by withholding sex because you’re not being good enough to deserve that? [RON] I agree. It’s a dangerous game. [LEXIE] It is. And at the same time, I mean, I understand where somebody would be coming from also. I mean, we see this a lot. It’s not just these people we were talking to the other day. We even see it with our clients sometimes that there is this, I’m going to withhold this because you’re not doing what I want. If that’s the element of it, then that’s a dangerous road. Sex should come out of this desire for each other and not you’re doing what I want. That just does not feel comfortable at all to think of it in those terms. Yet we set up transactions all the time in relationships too. So I think for me, when I think about it, the biggest thing is I want to create positive feelings for you, whether that is with sex or just because I’m doing things for you that are not sexual because I want you to have positive feelings. I’m in relationship with you, and I want you to have that. There should be less emphasis on whether or not you are doing things for me. [RON] I want to hone you down a little bit. You were saying that we have transactional things within the relationship a lot. Can you give me some positive transactions in a relationship that seems to be an okay transaction? [LEXIE] I don’t want to have too much pause as I’m thinking about that. [RON] No, I’m sorry, it was not a planned question. It was out of the blue. [LEXIE] When you bring me a cup of coffee, it makes me feel more positive and I want to do more things for you, like to speak your love language. So I’m thinking that you can’t take all transaction out completely. [RON] I think you can, and it’s hard to pinpoint what a transaction a good transaction is because they end up being on the individual. But we can’t say sex is the transactional because that’s an easier negative thing to go to because sex has been transactional in the sex trades, unfortunately. It is all 100% transactional. [LEXIE] I think it’s gray and complicated because yes, if you are creating positive feelings for me, then I’m much more likely to want to have sex with you. I can’t say, oh, absolutely no sex unless you’re doing A, B and C. So there’s a gray area. [RON] Now, here’s one of the weird parts that we’ve seen as well. So the spouse is saying that you’re not going to have sex, we’re not going to have sex unless you’re doing something that helps me out. The things that she’s pointing out is everything on her side of the table. You’re not helping me clean the house, you’re not helping me do this. So I just looked at her and was like, “So how much yard work are you doing?” She looked at me and like, “What?” I’m like, yes, so you’re going out and you’re helping mow the yard and you’re edging and doing those things? She was like, “No, that’s the man’s job.” Really? Because when you start playing that game, you’re playing a whole different game because he’s going, housework, woman’s work. I’m taking care of the yard, I’m taking care of the cars, I’m taking care of the garage, I’m taking care of all the generalized stuff. I’m not asking her to participate or to help me out, but she wants me to pull things off of her table. That’s what this guy had his problem. He was like, I don’t think this is a fair maneuver because now I get to do all her stuff, my stuff, what? [LEXIE] Well, I think part of it is if we have clearly defined roles. [RON] That’s where I went. I went let’s clearly define the roles. If he has to do something in the house, okay, let him know that it needs to be done. Let him know that if you want him to clean the bathroom, that that’s what he needs to do, he needs to clean the bathrooms, so Saturday you clean the bathrooms. The guy was like, well, I don’t know how to clean the bathroom. I was like, oh, well, my dad was an E-8, E-9 chiefs, senior master sergeant, let me tell you how he taught me how to clean the bathroom. He took the can, he tore the lead off of it, he walked into the bathroom and started shaking it everywhere, just shaking the can. Anywhere the can landed, he said, clean that. I walk in here. I see no comment, you’re good to go. The guy was like, are you serious? I’m like, yes, it was pretty easy. You just have to move the can. You just have to keep rubbing until the dirt is gone. You grab a hand towel or the old towel that you had during the week, you throw that on the ground, that’s your final cleanup. You wipe everything down. Literally, you can have a bathroom wiped down and clean in about seven minutes. So I looked at the guy and I was like, do it on a Saturday morning. Just wake up in the morning, walk into the bathroom, throw the cleaner everywhere, wipe it down, okay, 14 minutes later, your Saturday chores are off the table. She can’t complain to you. You can go fishing, go play in the yard, go do your personal thing knowing that you satisfy the wife’s criteria and then once it’s planned, it’s easier. [LEXIE] There’s some steps before that though. You have to talk about, is that the expectation, because — [RON] Oh, so tell me these magical steps you have. [LEXIE] Well, having a conversation about what I expect on the different roles, like if we’re just talking about how to keep a clean house, what my expectation is, what your expectation is, and how do we negotiate that if we’re not talking about it and I’m just making assumptions, or I’m expecting you to read my mind, which — [RON] Ooh, the great Carac [LEXIE] Happens a lot, the great Carac, hadn’t thought about that in a while. [RON] That’s a Johnny Carson reference showing that I’m old. [LEXIE] Yes [RON] You agree with that? [LEXIE] You’re shocked that I agreed that you’re old. [RON] No, I feel sad all of a sudden. Keep going, keep going. [LEXIE] I feel like you should say, takes one to know one [RON] Totally. I would not say that about my wife. That would not be marriage counselor approved [LEXIE] I can say am old. Anyway, you have to have a conversation about what your expectations are and so taking up these different roles and talking about it. Or if it’s not around cleanliness, like it was for this couple, I’m not going to have sex with you if you are not willing to spend time with me or whatever the thing is that you’re wanting, you have to ask for it and you have to have a discussion about what your expectations are. We talk about this a lot. [RON] It happens a lot. [LEXIE] But it’s huge. Defined expectations is really, I think Brené Brown says it’s being kind, being clear is being kind. So at first, having that discussion, and then after the discussion, you’re taking ownership of what part is yours. What am I responsible for doing that will make it better? [RON] Then for some reason it really bothered them when I said, mark it on a calendar. They were like, what? I was like, show yourself, tell yourself, show them you’ve took care of something. You did what you asked them to do. Because once the cognitive mind starts playing these little magical games, you won’t see it. They could be doing all the things, but you’re not seeing it because the story you’re telling yourself in your head. So make it clear. That was a problem. I was like, well, your boss pay you if you don’t give them a pay stub showing how many days a week you showed up and that you did your job? [LEXIE] So you made it transactional? [RON] I did make it a little transactional because that’s what they’re doing. I know you’re saying, well, transactional versus transactional is a wipe and that’s a dangerous game. And I admit it. But sometimes you do need to see that someone is actually doing something that you’re saying they’re doing and you got to find a way to get it out of your head that it has to be something that you can see on paper sometimes. [LEXIE] Collecting data to knock out a limiting belief. [RON] Well, that sounds much more scientific than my ramble. [LEXIE] Well, and so what is a limiting belief? A limiting belief is when you believe that something has boundaries that are not going to make it happen. A limiting belief can be I can’t do whatever. That’s a limiting belief. Whereas a non-limiting belief is I don’t know how to do that. I wonder how I can learn. It’s that growth mindset that Carol Dweck talks about in her book. Limiting beliefs are like the opposite of growth mindset and as entrepreneurs, we’re all about trying to have a growth mindset and that anything that we put our mind to, we can make happen. Yet sometimes in our relationships we don’t have that same growth mindset that oh, my partner’s always going to be that way, or my partner’s never going to do this. All of those are limiting beliefs whereas if we can flip it and we can say, how can we make this different, how can we talk about this, what can I do differently because of what I’m bringing to the table, all of that is a growth mindset that can shut down that limiting belief. [RON] Increase communication. Talk about what you’re expecting, mark it on a calendar if you can see that it’s happening, continue with life. It’s not hard people, but it’s difficult. [LEXIE] It’s not easy and yet it is simple. All right, well, I can’t wait to hear how you all are applying these new growth mindsets and we’re stopping having sex as being transactional and making our relationships as great as we’re making our businesses. [RON] If you’re listening to our show and you want to communicate with us and give us some feedback or talk to us or ask us a question, you can do that. Let me tell you. How you just got to go to our Facebook page, go to the Married Entrepreneurs Facebook page, and the comments or on the messenger. Type us out something, let us know that you’re listening. Let us know that you’re, and we love the feedback. You all have a great day out there. Go out there, slay the world, take no prisoners. [LEXIE] Thank you for listening. Time is our most valuable resource and we appreciate that you shared your time listening to us. If you enjoyed our show, please rate us or give us a review. You can share this episode with someone that you think may benefit. You can find more from us at marriedentrepreneurspodcast.com. [RON] This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.