[LEXIE LEE] The Married Entrepreneurs Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Bomb Mom and Grow A Group Practice, go to www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. [RON LEE] Welcome to the Married Entrepreneurs Podcast. This is Ron Lee. [LEXIE] I am Lexie Lee. [RON] We are professional counselors and serial entrepreneurs who are married [LEXIE] To each other. [RON] Thank you for joining us as we explore the business of life and the life of business. Good morning. [LEXIE] Good morning. [RON] How are you today? [LEXIE] Good. I am good. [RON] What are we talking about? [LEXIE] Today we are talking about how to stop micromanaging your spouse. [RON] Whoa, great topic. Happens a lot. Not good stuff. [LEXIE] It does happen. I think part of where we want to start is talking about how sometimes there are these two roles that the partners can take on that contribute to micromanaging. The two roles are perfectionist and wild card. [RON] I know where I fall on that one. Where do you fall in? It is malleable. It does move. [LEXIE] Yes. I tend to be the perfectionist. There’s some good things about being a perfectionist. There’s attention to detail. You can help keep your partner grounded, but sometimes it can take longer because I’ll sacrifice the good and pursuit of perfection. Certainly a perfectionist can sometimes hurt creativity because you get stuck. [RON] I can see that. [LEXIE] Also with the perfectionist, a lot of times you be become a perfectionist because of this core belief that you have, that you’re not good enough. You see what you produce as a reflection of who you are. So a lot of times you have to deal with that core belief that you are good enough and that what you produce does not necessarily determine your value. Can you want to talk about wild card? [RON] I would be a wild card. [LEXIE] Most of the time. [RON] Most of the time. Like I said, it can’t change. So let’s describe a wild card. You give me some personalities on us. I am a big picture person. [RON] I am not afraid to leap. I am not afraid to just jump in with both feet. It doesn’t matter how deep it is, unless sometimes it doesn’t even matter how cold it is or how hot it is. If sometimes I see an opportunity, I just jump right for it, which is a dangerous thing. Wild cards have a tendency to see the big pictures. We see the bigger. Things like that can be out there, but that doesn’t that necessarily isn’t a good thing. You can be, you can see the bigger picture, but if you can’t figure out how to design it. You can’t figure out how to carve it out. Then seeing the big picture becomes more of an ideal of I’m pipe dream on some levels. You end up becoming a pipe dream, unless you can find someone who can help you fine tune those skills into something that’s a daily workable deal. A wild card person could end up being a pipe dream, which is a very dangerous thing for life. [LEXIE] But also sometimes things work for the wild card. People are telling them, oh, you can’t do that and then they prove them wrong. You’ve proven people wrong a lot. [RON] Oh, that’s one of my main key things. If you tell me I can’t do it, then, then I get really, really determined to prove you wrong. [LEXIE] Yes, which can be good. It certainly can be good. Sometimes that can mean that you well, I would say that can make you arrogant. Maybe a nicer way to say that is you’re too confident. Too confident going in. [RON] Okay. I can see some arrogance. [LEXIE] When we look at some personal experience I think that that’s a little bit of what happened with the Park Hill location. Remember that story? [RON] Yes, I do actually. We were looking for new equipment. This is at the dry cleaners. We were looking for new equipment, shirt equipment, actually because we were tired of farming off a piece of that action to another company. So we were looking for equipment and we came across a dry cleaner that was going out of business. I went and talked to him, came to find out the guy who actually was leasing, did not have permit to do anything. The building owner had basically taken over the site at that time. So I called the building owner and met with him. He basically came in and said, I could have all the equipment, just get rid of it, empty the place out. It’s yours, if I signed the year’s lease. That was tempting at the time because I looked at it and I was like, okay, there’s 30 or $40,000 worth of equipment in here. Okay. I’ll sign you a lease. I didn’t do any research. I didn’t make sure the equipment was in good shape. I didn’t make sure the location was valuable. I mean not valuable, but making money. I just was like, and I didn’t even talk over with my business partner and hello folks, you all might know who my business partner is. Her name is Lexie. I didn’t discuss it with her. I just pop pulled the trigger. The next weekend we were scrambling because now we had to find a way to get all this equipment another room because the landlord was like you got to liquidate it. All this stuff has got to go now. So it was very stressful. We ended up losing the location because we couldn’t afford it. So then I had three months in, three to six months in. We ended up having to call the landlord going, we don’t have the rent. The rent’s not being generated by this location. It almost took the dry cleaning company down. That one location almost took us down. [LEXIE] Why do you think you didn’t want to discuss it with me to begin with? [RON] Oh, you’d just said no. [LEXIE] You didn’t trust me. [RON] Why? I don’t know if, I don’t like the term I didn’t trust you. I trust you. I just didn’t want you to say, no. So yes, I just omitted. You’d said, is that wrong? I think it may be wrong. It may not be marriage counselor approved just to omit stuff and then pull triggers on $30,000, $40,000 buys and responsibilities for those being added onto your bottom line. It wasn’t a smart move. [LEXIE] Well, and certainly we learned some things the hard way before we became marriage counselors that we can draw on our own experience. I would say that it can be true that you trust and don’t trust at the same time. So these relationships between perfectionist and wild cards, they can be good or they can be bad depending on how you operate within them and how much you understand what you are bringing to the table. So when it goes bad, the perfectionist is seeking perfection and the wild card is saying, oh, it’s good enough and they’re just pushing their agenda. The more that they push and say, we need to do it the more the perfectionist is going to withdraw. Then you’ll you have this push and pull that’s going and it’s not productive. Nothing is really getting done and a whole lot of fighting is happening. So then it makes it more likely that one partner’s just going to do things without talking or that the other partner, the perfectionist is double checking behind you the whole time because I can’t trust you. Because you’re not being completely honest about things. [RON] That’s where the micromanaging comes in. [LEXIE] Exactly. There are a couple other things that can contribute to that dynamic. What we have found, some things that can be foundational to it is one, a lot of times you have unclear roles and responsibilities. Who is responsible for what? Who owns it and who’s responsible? So there’s this idea between ownership and responsibility. Like I own the job of cleaning the kitchen. That doesn’t mean I’m the only one who does cleaning the kitchen. I can delegate things out. I can give some responsibility out. My teenagers are great for me to delegate too. It just means a whole lot of follow up, as typical that can — [RON] Talk about micromanaging. [LEXIE] Well, that can cause a headache. However, this idea between ownership and responsibility, if the teenagers do not follow up on their responsibility and take care of it, I, as the owner have to make sure that it gets done, whether I put myself or I have retraining with them or any number of steps. As the owner, I’m responsible. If it doesn’t get done, it falls on me. So it it’s the same in some of our roles in our business as well. So you have to clearly define it, determine who owns it and who is responsible. [RON] So then you got to look at unspoken expectations. [LEXIE] Yes. [RON] And unspoken expectations are just one of those things that is just what it sounds like. We’re not telling our partner exactly what we’re thinking about. We’re not telling them what we’re expecting it to look like. So we’re just having this idea in our own head, but we’re not expressed it. Now, I got to go over the happy formula. Did you know there was a formula for happy? [LEXIE] I did. [RON] Of course you did. [LEXIE] Learned the hard way. [RON] Yes. They may not know there was a formula for happy. So let me just go ahead and teach you the happy formula right now so then you can just put it in your Rolodex. You have it forever and now you know what it takes to make you happy. Here you go. Expectations, meeting realities. Now it just sounds too simple. What it boils down to is you have to have an expectation. So I want to use a bit of a graphic illustration to get to this point home, but it does send the point home. Okay, if you’re a 19-year-old guy and you’re married to a 19 year old woman and you guys have your own place and you’re married, you have no kids, and his expectations of sex is seven times a week and her expectations of sex is seven times a week, is that a doable number? [LEXIE] It sounds like a good match. [RON] Yes, exactly. So that actually works in the happy formula because his expectations and hers meet, they make those expectations happen and therefore happy, happy. Let’s fast forward this couple 20 years. So 39, 40, we’re going to give them two kids, two full-time jobs. His expectations is still sex seven times a week. Now the audience needs to quit laughing at this point. [LEXIE] Because we’re tired. [RON] That ain’t happening. Sex seven times a week when you’re knocking on 40 just is not going to happen. So we’re going to go with statistics, one, one and a half times a week. Not sure what a half is, but one time a week is the average statistic of how many times people have sex. So if reality is one is expectation to seven, everything in between that we’re going to call it happy. So the reality bar has to be moved. The expectation bar has to be moved. Now here’s the weird part. I can move my expectation bar quickly and easily without even thinking about it but I hold the bar for other people more rigid. Let me give you an example. My employee shows up for work. They’re a bad employee. [LEXIE] They show up late. [RON] They show up late for work. They show up late, so bad employee. They just get, so I’ll bring them in and I’ll be like, you’re a bad employee. I’m going to have to write you up. You’re not good. But if I’m late for work, oh, traffic was horrible today. I just move that bar right where I need to make it work for me. So that’s one of the conversations that couples have to have is what are our expectations? What is the thing that we’re looking for? That happens through business meetings, that happens through solutions and understanding each other. [LEXIE] Yes. I heard Brené Brown talk about how, I think it was in her leadership book talking about how being clear with your expectations is being kind. I would say that’s our experience as well. The clearer you are with your expectations, the kinder you’re being. We’re not mind readers. But you brought up something about the business meeting. Absolutely. This is a tip that we have that can help solve the issue of micromanaging your partner and making sure that trust can build and grow. So we recommend that you hold a business meeting and the first step of that is is what, Ron? What’s the first step? [RON] I think the first step would be to just list it. List the roles, responsibilities, have a good idea of a foundation, a piece of paper that says, you’re going to do this and I’m going to do that. Then next we start with that. That should be the very beginning of any business, is having an idea of everything that needs to get done, assigning it to someone and then having the trust to follow through. [LEXIE] Yes. So that would be the second step after you have the list of all the roles and responsibilities, is to then create job descriptions. and that’s where you determine who’s assigned for what, and then you actually put a job description. [RON] How detailed should that be Lex? [LEXIE] Well, again, if we’re shooting for clear expectations the more detail it can have the better because again, I can have something not clearly defined and I expect that you’re going to follow through on, I don’t know if we want to use laundry that my expectation is that you’re also responsible for buying detergent and your expectation is you’re going to the grocery store already. So you’re going to pick it up. That could lead to a frustration because we haven’t thought through the complete process and have clear expectations. [RON] So they don’t lead to expectations. So that plugs back into the happy formula. If we don’t set our expectations for our employees, our spouses, and then when they don’t live up to those, how can I get mad? I can’t get mad at you. I mean, I shouldn’t get mad at you if you didn’t know it needed to be done. [LEXIE] Exactly, but sometimes things can fall through the cracks. So that’s why we need good follow up. It’s like, back to my kitchen example where I own the cleaning of the kitchen, but the responsibility is delegated to children. I sometimes have to follow up and say, okay, you haven’t done this. Why not? But that doesn’t always feel good if you’re dealing with your partner versus your children. There’s this authority dynamic that doesn’t feel good when you’re married. We have bumped up against this a few times, for instance when we first got into business together, while I, most of the time can be a perfectionist, which says detail-oriented, sometimes it has to be perfect, it gets me stuck. So I will procrastinate. Sometimes perfectionists tend to be procrastinators and I fall in that line sometimes. So I would procrastinate paperwork. That was a hard follow up for you because if you’re pointing out that when I’m not perfect, then I’m much more likely to be triggered and get mad. So we had to come up with some conversation and giving you permission to follow up with me. So how that looks for us is Ron will talk about how he feels when he sees that something’s not done. For instance, it might sound like this. I was looking at our financials and I’m feeling uncomfortable. So it makes me wonder if there’s some things that aren’t being done versus have you done this paperwork yet? [RON] Is paperwork in? That’s the worst. It’s why haven’t you done your paperwork? Because it’s blaming. It’s accusatory and it never is going to feel good to your partner. [LEXIE] But it has helped that you talk about how you feel in that situation. I can connect with that. I don’t want to create that feeling for you. Because I don’t feel blamed and judged, I’m much more likely to say I own it. I recognize and come up with an action plan on how to correct it. So it is important. I’m sorry, go ahead. [RON] I would also have to say one of the key aspects of this is stay in your lane. [LEXIE] Yes. [RON] So understand, earlier we talked about going in and making this giant list of roles and responsibilities and make it really defined. Stay in your lane, people. If your wife says she’s going to do it, then she needs to do it. Don’t walk out there and okay, let me give you an example. All right, guys, do this all the time. We hear about it. Your wife’s mad because the kitchen is a mess. So she is angry at the whole family because the house is tore up and she is in the kitchen and she’s doing dishes. She may be doing the dishes a little aggressively. So you hear that you’re hearing the dinging and the pots and everything getting clanged around and there you’re already in your head going, “Well, this isn’t going to be fun.” [RON] So what you do is you stand up and you walk into the kitchen and you try to take over. You’ll see your wife doing the dishes. You know she’s unhappy. Guys will do this with cooking too. The wife will be cooking something. It’s like, we try to muscle them out a little bit like, “Hey, let me just take over that for like, see you in a bed,” which is going to do what? It’s going to make them more mad because they started a project. Let them finish the project. If they need help, let them come to you and say, I need help with the project. Stay in your lane. Very important. [LEXIE] Well, and so while you’re given permission to help, if they need help, they will ask. You’re also given permission for follow up. If you want someone to hold you accountable, you need to give permission. [RON] I give Lexie permission to tell me to gather kitchen. I’m a big guy. I mean, I’m not like ridiculously big, but I’m a big guy. I’m six foot, four, 300 pounds. I’m not supposed to be in the kitchen at nine o’clock. This is something I learned when I was 17 or 18. You don’t eat light. If you’re big people, you don’t eat light. So I’ll be in the kitchen sharking. I call it sharking, like when you’re walking around the kitchen, ready to devour anything. You’re just like don, don and don, don, don, don. It’s like you got the jaw steam going in your head. You’ll devour anything. Then your wife, my beautiful bride would look over me and go get out of the kitchen. I’m like, what? Get out of the kitchen. Now is she’s saying it to me to be mean? No, she’s saying it to me because I actually gave her permission to tell me that. Because I know if I eat this late, I’m not going to sleep well. My body will be trying to digest foods all night long. I’ll have what I would call the BS where you’re burping and you’re just not going to sleep well. So I fight my, I get in my own way. So I give her permission to tell me, to get out of the way and it works. [LEXIE] Here’s the other thing about permission, is that when you go work for someone else, there’s an unspoken permission that you give your boss to follow up with you. That is part of their job description, their responsibility. That role that they take is to follow up and to make sure that you’re taking care of things. They have permission from you to ask, if you have done your job. Now, you might how they do it. Might still irritate them but there’s that unspoken permission. We’re saying that when you together, as a couple and entrepreneurs together, you need to give your partner permission in certain situations to be able to follow up. And think the last part of that is that you need to control your mindset. Not so easy. [RON] Controlling your mindset. Ooh, that’s a hard one. I think controlling your mindset has changed. It’s controlling your personal perception. Now your perception is always truth. There’s always three truths. We’ve all heard that before. There’s her truth, his truth and their truth. So they are four. I have to respect her truth. I have to expect her perception is as her truth, as she has to understand my perspective is my truth. Then we create this mindset from that, that our partner is not trying to hurt us. Our partner is not trying to undermine. Our partner is not trying to do anything that’s going to destroy the business. [LEXIE] Exactly. [RON] But we have to control the way we view what they’re doing and that’s on you. [LEXIE] So let’s talk for just a second about how we put this in place for us. We hold weekly business meetings where we say, okay, what is it that we want to accomplish in this next week? Now we don’t just talk about what we want to accomplish work wise. We also talk about what we want to accomplish homewise too. What project do we want to knock out this next week? So we have a list that we go through. We assign who owns it. The owner of it is the one who makes sure that it gets done. Now, that doesn’t mean that we don’t necessarily work on things together. Responsibility might be a shared responsibility, but we determine who owns it, what our expectation is of when it will be done and how much it will cost or standard conversations that we have. Then it’s so fun to the next week, as we’re talking about things, be able to, okay, this is what we accomplished from the last meeting. So for us, that is every Friday that we have that meeting and we encourage you as well to hold that weekly meeting with each other and let us know, reach out to us and let us know what you think of this idea and how it is working you. [RON] Exactly. I am Ron Lee. [LEXIE] I am Lexie Lee. [RON] You all have a great day. [LEXIE] Thank you for listening. Time is our most valuable resource and we appreciate that you shared your time listening to us. If you enjoyed our show, please rate us or give us a review. You can share this episode with someone that you think may benefit. You can find more from us at marriedentrepreneurspodcast.com. [RON] This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.