[LEXIE LEE] The Married Entrepreneurs Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Bomb Mom and Grow A Group Practice, go to www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. [RON LEE] Welcome to the Married Entrepreneurs Podcast. This is Ron Lee. [LEXIE] I am Lexi Lee. [RON] We are professional counselors and serial entrepreneurs who are married [LEXIE] To each other. [RON] Thank you for joining us as we explore the business of life and the life of business. [LEXIE] Are you a marketer, a consultant, freelancer, a startup offering medium to high ticket offers? Do you have questions about content and how to best inform your client about your product? Well, today’s guest, Jonathan Woodruff, constructs case studies and testimonials for businesses who need a compelling, no-BS sales asset. He lives in Milwaukee, Wisconsin with his wife of 10 years, and he has created freebusinesscasestudy.com, a tool where businesses can answer simple questions on a form, and then it automatically creates a case study to their email. Welcome Jonathan. [JONATHAN WOODRUFF] Hey, how’s it going? It’s great to be here. [LEXIE] I’m so glad that you are joining us today. [JONATHAN] Super glad to be here. Yes, it’s just great to meet you guys, face to face. So I’m excited. [RON] So Jonathan, what is a case study and why do I need one? [JONATHAN] Oh man, well, a a case study is a form of social proof. So you think about going on Amazon and you see reviews. That’s one people, that’s one way people can get an idea of what they’re going to buy, same with testimonials and same with case studies. So a case study you typically see, for medium to high ticket offers, it’s just a way to show people, prospective clients what we can do for people like you. So the way a case study is basically broken down is okay, well, this is the client we served in the past, this is what we did for them, this is the results that we got. So if prospective clients use that and they’re like, oh, well that’s like me, that was my that’s my situation and if they can see, oh, this is how you help them, well, therefore, this is how you help me, going to help me and this is the type of results you’re going to get for me then that’s ultimately what a case study serves to do. It’s just to prove what you can do for someone. So a business can talk until they’re blue in the face about all they can do for another client, but what the client wants is, well don’t talk to me, show me. That’s what a case does. [RON] Okay, what do I need to prepare a good case study? What information is needed? [JONATHAN] There’s a lot to that. So we can start to break this down into almost the buyer psychology of it. I mean, the basic, basic, basic part of it is those elements. So when you look at a good case study, it has a title, it’s a compelling title that speaks to the problem that you’re able to solve for your client. The next section is about the client, just like a one or two sentence thing to say who the client was and the reason you have that is because prospects need to know is that client similar to me? Then the next three sections are the challenge, the solution and the results. So the challenge just speaks in more detail into what is the problem that you solved. The solution is how did you solve it and the results are what are the actual results that you got, the hard numbers, if you have any? How’d you grow the revenue or whatever it might be. So that’s the basic structure of it but you can really go into a lot more detail into some bio psychology if you really want to how to structure the challenge section, how to create a deliverable that goes even beyond just the case study itself to really turn it into the ultimate sales asset so that somebody can read this case study and go from not knowing you to being like, okay, I’m sold on it. So a case study is just that, but you can really add more to it to really turn it into that ultimate sales asset as well. [LEXIE] Okay, so if you’re going to develop a case study, what might be some pitfalls that you can avoid so that we’re making sure we’re getting the most bang for a buck in this? [JONATHAN] Well, you really want to avoid anything that’s going to be, am I allowed to cuss on this podcast? [LEXIE] Yes. Okay, sure. You really want to avoid the bullshit? So anything that’s not authentic, anything that’s not real, if it sounds like you’re trying to someone and you’re using fakey numbers or over-the-top statements, you want to avoid all of that at all costs because at the end of the day, what the person’s looking for is, again, can you help people like me? And people see through stuff so easily these days. So if you really genuinely helped the clients then it just needs to be very straightforward. You just need to say, what did you do? It doesn’t need to be more complicated than that. What are the results that you got? It doesn’t need to be more complicated than that. I think you can really get into trouble when you’re trying to turn it into a salesy pitch when it just doesn’t need to be that way. I think that would be the biggest pitfall. So in turn, something that you can do to make it even more authentic and real and genuine is to actually interview your client. So if you can reach out to your client and say, “Hey, can I chat with you for 30 minutes,” what you’re going to do is basically try to get their testimonial. So you’re going to get you’re going to ask them about their challenge in their words. You’re going to ask them about the results that you were able to get for them but not only that, but also how did they feel about the experience. How did they feel before you started working with them? Maybe they felt like things were a mess. Maybe there was some turmoil. How did you feel after, how did they feel after you were done working with them? Maybe they felt relief. Maybe they felt clarity. Maybe they felt like they could sleep at night. So you’re really getting all this information and what I like to do as part of turning this case study into the ultimate sales asset is to make it super, super genuine, is to have this case study and what follows right after that is a long form written testimonial that is just in their words, just exact. So when you get them on this phone call and you interview them, you’re recording this and you can turn that recording into a transcript and then you can pull bits and pieces from that transcript, use their actual words when they’re telling. So basically, you’re using their exact words to tell other people what you can do for them there’s nothing more genuine than that. [LEXIE] Well, and I would think that if you are interviewing your actual client, you’re probably also going to be able to pick up more on some SEO words that are going to help your website as well. How do you keep that in mind as doing that interview and thinking, okay, how can I help my SEO when I post this as well? [JONATHAN] Oh yes, I mean, it’s a huge, that recording with that client is a huge marketing opportunity. Yes, like keywords, but also it goes way beyond that as well, in terms of, I think it starts with figuring out what questions you want to ask your client to begin with. Because you want to ask the questions that are going to produce a testimonial and get information for the case study but you can take that opportunity to think about also what other things do you want to know for your marketing that can help you with your positioning, that can help you understand where they hang out online, what channels to be on and just anything like that. So, yes, but SEO keywords as well, like yes, going through that transcript and keeping an eye open for that, I think that’s all just part of the good marketing that you can do with this type of thing. [LEXIE] Well, and I love that you say to interview your client, because we find that like, if we want to develop a new product that going directly to the people we’ve already drank in our Kool-Aid to find out what additional things they want for us. It can be such a huge time saver so that we’re not creating all these things and then hoping to sell it. We’ve got people who are already buying from us and they give us that good information. So being able to take the same idea and say, okay, how can I make marketing my existing product better by getting exactly what benefits somebody who’s already bought it has gotten from it. I love that idea. [JONATHAN] Exactly. [LEXIE] You not only do case studies, you’re a content editor as well, right? So tell us a little bit about that and how we can utilize that more in developing our business. [RON] Because honestly, as a content creator, I definitely love the idea of someone creating stuff for me, but go ahead. [JONATHAN] Oh, you mean specifically for you guys as podcasters? [LEXIE] Or for any entrepreneur in general, what do we want to look for in a content editor? [JONATHAN] Oh yes, so I’m a content editor for Everyone Hates Marketers. If you go to that website, you’ll see why I cursed on this podcast and I said the word, because it’s all about fighting marketing bullshit. So but anyway, I digress, I love everyone who’s a marketer, but I think in terms of what’s to look for in a content editor, just anyone that you’re going to bring on board, for me, I think what Louis, my boss was looking for was someone with like a journalist skill set, someone who can hold an interview with a customer, who has writing ability but also the ability to take his words and his contents and piece things together into something that’s really good, basically take his words, his outline and draft a newsletter that makes sense and that’s compelling. So I think those are like the main skill sets. I think in terms of intangibles something that he’s really voiced that he appreciates about me is reliability and trustworthiness and just the willingness to work hard. I think another thing is also like actually caring. I actually care about Everyone Hates Marketers. I think that’s hard to find. I’m not sure if you can sus that out in an interview when you’re trying to bring someone on board, if they’re actually going to care about your business and want to be part of the action and see it grow and see people being changed by it. But I think that’s something that keeps me getting up in the morning every day and looking forward to it and not living for the weekends. So I think that’s why I love being a content editor anyway for him. [LEXIE] Well, and I think you’re speaking to something that is a struggle for many of us starting in business is that trustworthy stuff. That in the beginning, so often we bootstrap things because financially, maybe that’s just where we are and as you grow, there reaches a point where you have to decide, do I continue to bootstrap or do I hire somebody who can take care of this for me? A big struggle is, okay, how do I trust you with my hard-earned dough and to know that I’m going to get something that is valuable, that I’m not just, sometimes it feels like in the beginning, you’re just throwing money off the window. It can be so expensive to grow things. So how do you know from your perspective, you think when you should move from that, doing your yourself to paying somebody to do it for you? [JONATHAN] So it’d be a good, I’ve heard someone ask Louis this at one point and so I’m a contractor. Louis actually has ambition to just be a company of one and to hire contractors as need be. At the moment I’m the only one, so I feel pretty good about that but I think from what I’ve heard him and some other people say is that it comes down to taking a chance before you actually have the money as sometimes it comes down to that right. Because you hit that, eventually you hit that wall, I think and you just, it’s either, you just keep going at that rate or you hire someone and to help you grow. I think in my case, all the things that I do for Louis, it helps free him up to do his what he actually needs to do in his company, to build it and not just focus on all those little tasks that are just on the operational side. I can take that off his hands for him so he can focus on the things that he needs to. He’s going to publish a book this year. He’s got some exciting things coming up and I think what I do for him helps him to free him up to do that. So I think it’s an equation. I don’t know that there’s a right answer to it but I think that’s what it comes down to. [LEXIE] I think you’re right, that it does reach a point where you have to decide, okay, I only have so many hours in the day to do things and so I can burn the candle at both ends and really wear myself out over time. Or I can really look for someone who can take some of the things off my plate so that I can do the things that I’m really good at. There’s some things I’m really good at and content may not be, the marketing content may not be the thing that I’m the best at. So I really appreciate that answer and gives you something to think about. I want to swing back to the case study that you’re talking about. When I think about doing a case study and interviewing a client and taking those pieces I really, I’m curious about why I need a case study versus just a really good testimonial, because a lot of times when I’m looking at pages, I see testimonial after testimonial. So, and you’re recommending both, but if I only have space for one, why would I do a case study versus a testimonial? [JONATHAN] It just depends. I don’t think you honestly have to choose, I’d be interested in a situation where you do have to choose only one. Because I do think that you can take just one interview with the client and turn it into both. There may be some situations, I think, where it only would make sense to do a testimonial and not a case study. I’m not a hundred percent sure of a situation where you’d only do a case study and not a testimonial. So I think in my mind, given that I would say if you’re interested in doing a case study, I think either way, a case study or a testimonial, interview that client, and then you can repurpose it into either one or both. I think that would be my advice, but yes, it does start either way with that interview because even if you’re doing just a testimonial, for example, it just, again makes it so much less bullshitty to actually interview them and get that transcript and use their actual words than to just email them and be like, “Hey, can you gimme a testimonial?” and then you get that cheesy one liner, two liner, and it’s just not believable. Another thing I wanted to say is that when you’re doing case studies or testimonials or both one thing, or even an Amazon review, one thing that makes it way more compelling than just that positive, positive, positive, woo, the business was great, I had such a great time, one thing that makes it way more compelling is to actually start with the negative, start with the objection and then contrast that with the after. So it’s the before and after picture. For example just to go into Amazon review territory, and then we can translate it over to testimonials and case studies, if I go to an Indian restaurant and I love it, it’s great, five stars experience, great service, great food, love it all. I love it so much I want to leave a review about it so other people know about it. What I could do, what I think a lot of people do is I could be like, oh, this is such great restaurant, love the service, love the food. I just jump straight to that. End of my review. what I could do if I really wanted to help that restaurant elevate with my review even more is to be like, is to start with I’ve been to a lot of Indian restaurants before. Hated them. Way too spicy. My mouth was on fire. Couldn’t stand it, but this one, oh my gosh, it was perfect. Love the flavor, is so great, everything about it. That adds so much more to it because now other people who read that are going to be like, yes, I’ve been to other Indian restaurants that are terrible before I’ve my mouth was on fire and now, they’re going to. So it’s just going to be way more compelling. So when you do case studies and testimonials, same thing. And this is why I like to add the testimonial to the case study as well, because the case study, in my opinion, it should be brief. It should get to the point and it should start with the problem that’s about as negative as it gets, is like this is the problem that we’re solving for them. This is what we did. But then the testimonial can add so much more flavor to it. When you interview the customer, you can ask them like how did you feel before we worked with you? What hesitation, what fears did you have before working with us? They can talk about those negative things and you start with that in the testimonial, adds so much more flavor to the whole package and makes it way more compelling. [LEXIE] I love that. That’s so helpful to think in terms of how to make it as rich as possible. Any other final thoughts that you have for us as we’re thinking about doing this case study project? [JONATHAN] I think just to have fun with it. I think just, yes, doing those customer interviews and I think having a, one thing we didn’t touch on is the final deliverable. So when I do these things I have the case study and then the testimonial. You can also have a call-to-action on the third page and I think that’s really where you can turn this into a sales asset where you can just give this to somebody and hand it to them and be like, yes, this is what we did for someone just like you and this is what they said. If you want to take an action, just click the button. So I think that’s the final bit to it. Then if you want to design, like, if you want to design like a super professional on-brand looking PDF, you can also do that too. I know some people just prefer to slap it on their website. That’s just fine if you want it text-only, but if you want like something to attach to the email, you can turn it into a really nice-looking PDF as well. Just keep doing that over and over. Like, why not? Every time you have a client just reach out to them, interview them, do this whole process over and over. You can’t really have enough case studies and testimonials because each client is going to be a little bit different and they’re going to, their objections are going to appeal to a little bit different of a person. So it just helps to just keep doing it over and over, and also just keep getting that market research from them. Having that transcript is so, so, so valuable to your business just to keep in touch with the problems your clients are facing and how to translate that to the market. [LEXIE] That constantly keeping in touch with them so that you’re making sure you’re still meeting their needs and if you meet their needs, there’s somebody else that’s like them that will have a similar need. Jonathan, this has been a great conversation. If people wanted to hear more from you, what are some ways that they can reach out to you or contact you or just see what you’re doing? [JONATHAN] So the best, best, best way is actually just to go to freebusinesscasestudy.com. If you want to reach out to me, my contact info is at the bottom. You scroll down a little bit and email, you’ll be able to email me from there if you have any questions or want to learn more or anything like that. But the tool itself at freebusinesscasestudy.com, basically you just, it’s like a Madlib, if you’ve ever used a Madlib before. I don’t know if I can say that for copyright issues or not, but basically like you fill out this form. It’s a form, but it’s like fill in the blank type questions to make it as simple for you as possible and you just fill in the blanks. Then I have a tool that runs on the back end that once you fill out this form, it just sends you a case study for free in your email and it’s just done. So it’s just a way to save time, so if you want to create a case study, that would be my recommendation, is to start there and just use the form, check it out, get the business case study in your email. It just saves so much time instead of starting from scratch and trying to reinvent the wheel, and it’ll give you that case study and the structure of title, challenge, solution, results, all of that. So that would be my recommendation. [RON] Thank you, Jonathan, for being with us today and sharing your heart and your vision for your company. We really appreciate that. [LEXIE] This is us signing off. Thank you. We appreciate your time. [JONATHAN] Thank you so much. This has been really fun. Appreciate you. [RON] Thank you, Jonathan. Have a great day. [JONATHAN] All right to you guys. [LEXIE] Thank you for listening. Time is our most valuable resource and we appreciate that you shared your time listening to us. If you enjoyed our show, please rate us or give us a review. You can share this episode with someone that you think may benefit. You can find more from us at marriedentrepreneurspodcast.com. [RON] This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.